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The Chrysler-Plymouth Dance
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Jan 7, 2025
Chrysler and Plymouth dance with each other - why they needed Plymouth in 1928, why they needed it in 2001, and why they need it now! Can Chrysler be Chrysler without Plymouth? Find out how they shared, split, and survived (for a while)! - Recording of a live talk, with added video
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0:00
hi there this is Dave from Motel on the
0:02
Chrysler and Plymouth dance and it's
0:04
kind of a funny story you all know the
0:06
Chrysler story right basically you have
0:08
Maxwell Motors the Chrysler car was
0:11
already being developed by a separate
0:12
group run by three Engineers we have
0:14
Maxwell Motors and Maxwell has making
0:17
cars since 1904 1912 they go bankrupt
0:21
Ultra Flanders buys them puts his
0:23
Flanders car into production CLS it to
0:25
Maxwell the Old Maxwell is dead and then
0:28
they continue on like most leers of what
0:30
becomes Chrysler uh Flanders has a few
0:33
really good years and then just sort of
0:35
drifts off while in place and the
0:37
company comes close to going under and
0:39
then Walter Chrysler comes in to save it
0:41
1920 or 21 depending on which source you
0:44
use he uh brings in his Engineers to
0:46
pick up the Old Maxwell and he brings
0:48
out this B70 that's been developed by
0:50
people outside of the company he starts
0:53
out with the chryler car which was
0:54
developed by zader skeleton and Breer
0:57
and almost came out as the zer motor car
1:00
and that was a uh called the B70 model B
1:04
because it was the second car intended
1:06
to be a Chrysler designed by Zer
1:07
skeleton and Breer first one was
1:09
designed for Willis at Willis the 70
1:12
because it could go 70 M an hour and
1:14
those of you who have cars from this era
1:16
know that 70 M hour is hot stuff in 1924
1:20
and the answer I've gotten is the
1:22
Packard Super8 is the only other car
1:24
that's in some semblance of mass
1:26
production that could do that kind of
1:27
speed so it's got 68 horsepower power
1:30
which is a heck of a lot from a
1:31
six-cylinder in those days that is of
1:33
course brake horsepower so it's actually
1:36
less than that in today's terms but it
1:38
was still like wow that's a lot of power
1:41
four-wheel hydraulic brakes first well
1:43
technically the second car ever made
1:46
with practical four-wheel hydraulic
1:48
brakes but there were like five other
1:50
companies that tried hydraulic brakes
1:51
but none of those systems really work if
1:53
you went out into the desert your brakes
1:55
would lock up if it froze outside if you
1:58
know if you drove into Minnesota your
1:59
brakes would fail if you drove around
2:02
for about 6 months your brakes would
2:04
fail so this is the first practical
2:06
four-wheel hydraulic brakes they sells
2:08
it for $15.95 which is not a high price
2:10
meanwhile the Maxwell keeps on going
2:12
it's got two wheel mechanical brakes 38
2:14
horsepower 1926 frer slaps his name onto
2:19
the Maxwell no idea why he did this
2:22
because at the time you know wide range
2:24
car companies were not the norm if you
2:27
wanted to make a four-cylinder and you
2:29
were making six-cylinder you'd make a
2:31
new brand for it right you wouldn't just
2:33
slap it under your own brand here we
2:35
have the Chrysler big selling point
2:37
we've got hydraulic brakes yeah so what
2:38
do we do we throw in the Maxwell it's
2:40
got mechanical brakes it's an old design
2:43
it's got Splash lubrication in the
2:45
engine whereas the Chrysler as an oil
2:47
pumps it's still a four cylinder so it's
2:50
kind of an odd idea and it's called the
2:51
Chrysler 58 1928 we go from everything
2:55
under one name to this big explosion of
2:58
brands in one single year year doto
3:01
comes out along with Fargo trucks to
3:03
pressure Dodge Brothers into lowering
3:05
their price because he's trying to buy
3:07
Dodge Brothers so he finally buys Dodge
3:09
Brothers in the middle of the year now
3:10
you've got Chrysler you've got doto
3:12
you've got Dodge Brothers You've Got
3:14
Fargo trucks just to make life even more
3:17
complicated he spins off Maxwell it
3:19
becomes a Plymouth just changes the name
3:21
and it's magically a
3:23
Plymouth and now it's got standard
3:25
hydraulic brakes so there's some irony
3:28
for you hey we've got hydraulic brakes
3:29
let's change the name to Plymouth now
3:31
marketing pretended that the Plymouth is
3:33
all new and they circulated a story that
3:36
Walter Price went to Henry Ford with the
3:38
Plymouth and said here's my new Chief
3:39
car and Henry Ford looked at him and
3:42
said Walter you'll go broke I got that
3:44
market all locked up I highly doubt that
3:47
this happened because of course Chrysler
3:49
already had the model 58 and they had
3:52
had the Maxwell before that which
3:53
competed with Ford Ford still had much
3:56
more volume so 1929 to 1946
4:00
the stto and Dodge are between Plymouth
4:02
and Chrysler so there's some serious
4:04
distance between the the Plymouth and
4:05
the Chrysler even when the Plymouth is
4:08
completely redesigned in this time and
4:10
it's made into a much Superior car than
4:12
it was it's got a better four-cylinder
4:15
engine the whole thing is just
4:17
dramatically improved but the sto and
4:19
Dodge are there sort of in between so
4:21
Chrysler is still pretty high up and
4:23
they still have Imperial as their top
4:24
model and so the marks are defined by
4:27
size trim engines and completely
4:30
different bodies in some case and the
4:32
engines were really in a couple cases
4:34
really different so they kept these two
4:36
Brands apart postwar Walter Chrysler
4:39
basically he stayed at Chrysler much
4:41
longer than anybody would reasonably
4:43
expected him to he's a transformational
4:45
leader they usually stay on for three or
4:46
four years get bored alter Chrysler
4:49
leaves for the New York Central Railroad
4:50
in the 30s and dies in 1940 I believe
4:54
yes so he's gone after he leaves people
4:58
don't respect Plymouth brain much Walter
5:00
Chrysler understood that the heart of
5:01
the market was with the Plymouth so he
5:04
did a lot to keep investment high in it
5:06
KT Keller when he could be brought to
5:09
care about the car business at all did
5:11
not see things that way he just saw
5:13
margins think of stantis today cheap
5:16
cars no margins why would you invest in
5:18
those you know and Chrysler kept this
5:20
attitude towards Plymouth for quite a
5:22
long time in the 70s you might recall
5:25
that with the 68 Charger 500 they
5:27
figured out aerodynamics yet the window
5:29
has to bulge out a little bit in the
5:31
rear the rear window has to bulge out a
5:32
bit the window that Valiant had they
5:35
realized that that was taking off about
5:37
20 M an hour off the top end speed it
5:39
was killing gas mileage it was making it
5:41
noisy I asked wh why didn't you invest
5:45
taking the duster rear window which was
5:47
based on the aerodynamic study and
5:50
applying it to the Valiant sedan he said
5:52
we tried the executive said we barely
5:55
make any money on those cars if we're
5:57
lucky we break even why on Earth Earth
5:59
would we spend money retooling so the
6:02
window design that was put in in 1968
6:04
continued until 1976 in the USA and
6:07
until 1982 in other countries and the
6:10
whole time it was that awful concave
6:12
window that robbed performance so so
6:15
they cut investment in Plymouth they cut
6:17
the options and the mark dropped from
6:20
being a premium above Ford and Chevy to
6:22
being below Ford and
6:23
Chevy 50s 60s 7s you know the brands all
6:27
start getting wider every automaker
6:30
every Mark starts becoming more diverse
6:32
they stop having a different Mark for
6:34
each type of car so Dodge Dives down
6:36
into the Plymouth land and every
6:38
Plymouth has a Dodge version Valiant is
6:41
created in 1960 and it goes up and takes
6:44
Plymouth Sals basically and pleth itself
6:47
gets into the large cars as uh Chrysler
6:49
stays all large cars Chrysler is one
6:52
basic body design through all of this
6:54
Imperial has been split off by now so
6:56
they solved this crisis where Plymouth
6:58
sales ended up in at the end of 1960
7:01
they saw Plymouth sales were basically
7:03
so they merged Valiant into Plymouth and
7:06
now Plymouth is basically Plymouth plus
7:09
Valiant but most of the sales are
7:11
Valiant Barracuda and later duster so
7:14
most of the sales are basically Valiant
7:16
cars and then there's some plymouths on
7:18
top of that Dodge oddly enough gets a
7:20
version of valiant as well although it
7:22
really shouldn't if they had any brand
7:24
discipline at all it wouldn't have but
7:26
they didn't and I have talked to people
7:28
who have told stor stories yes we really
7:31
tried you know we we tried to instill
7:33
brand discipline but the dealers just
7:34
yelled and screamed and had tantrums and
7:37
we ended up giving them whatever they
7:38
wanted they wanted a Chrysler that was
7:40
cheaper than a Dodge we gave them a
7:41
Chrysler it was cheaper than a Dodge
7:43
unibody comes in 1960 that uh the cars
7:46
start sharing body structure so now
7:48
Chrysler and Plymouth both have the same
7:50
body structure on the large cars every
7:52
Chrysler is a large car the top end
7:54
Plymouth is a large car same body
7:56
structure so they differentiate it in
7:58
overall length
8:00
it differentiates sometimes in wheelbase
8:02
but that's a little expensive when
8:04
you're dealing with a unibody car
8:06
features trim sound insulation engines
8:09
Chrysler always had the biggest engines
8:11
as standard you could buy a Plymouth
8:13
with a more powerful and bigger engine
8:14
than a Chrysler but it would be an
8:16
option fuel economy days come in and
8:19
this kind of wops Chrysler because
8:20
suddenly nobody wants quote a boat
8:22
anchor engine and nobody wants a quote
8:25
land yacht so the big cars do not sell
8:29
and this is not the government coming in
8:30
and saying you can't make big cars
8:32
because people say that now but if you
8:33
look at the sales figures it's and if
8:35
you were alive during that day you
8:37
remember what the kids were saying
8:39
somebody would drive by in this
8:40
beautiful New Yorker and they'd laugh at
8:42
them and say oh what a piece of crap
8:44
you're driving land yacht you know that
8:47
attitude was in the 80s too it just kept
8:49
on going in their desperation they
8:52
restyle a bolari they put in extra welds
8:55
they put in extra sand insulation and
8:58
they have what they call the Ember body
9:00
although as far as I can tell from
9:02
talking to a lot of people the mbody and
9:05
the fbody valari were exactly the same
9:07
car in just about every important way
9:11
there was no reason to have a separate
9:12
mbody platform the windshield even had
9:15
the same tilt so on the left you see a
9:17
Volari on the right you see a Chrysler
9:20
Larin now note the price difference
9:23
valari with the V8 the same V8 this is
9:27
the 318 V8
9:29
3905 the learon $50,605
9:59
the world they were just more fuel
10:00
efficient than a 440 would be you're
10:02
still looking at gee maybe if I'm lucky
10:04
I'll get 18 m per gallon on this highway
10:07
trip if I stick to 55 mil hour so now we
10:10
have the K cars the front-wheel drive
10:12
and the K cars really were pretty
10:14
amazing especially coming from Chrysler
10:16
and the shape that Chrysler was in when
10:17
it created them that was one of those
10:19
things that Chrysler occasionally does
10:21
when the chips are down suddenly the
10:24
corporate rules are suspended a little
10:26
bit so that we can survive so we get the
10:29
the K cars the Chrysler and the Plymouth
10:31
have the same engine body suspension the
10:34
Chrysler gets more sound insulation and
10:36
nicer trim and it has more standard
10:39
features so look at those prices the
10:41
Reliant $59.90 the learon
10:44
8142 that's a premium the thing that
10:47
gets me is okay look at the ebody also
10:50
the ebody is an extended Reliant
10:52
basically e is for extended they take
10:54
the wheelbase they stretch it out I
10:56
think it was 3 in I might be wrong uh
10:58
Plymouth count
11:00
$97 New Yorker
11:03
12,865 there's a premium same engine did
11:07
customers buy it this is what shocked me
11:09
when I was writing this book the formula
11:12
always worked and this is a thing that's
11:15
really fascinating to me people would
11:17
buy the Chrysler if you look at the same
11:20
years and you look at the Dodge Diplomat
11:23
Plymouth Grand Fury and Chrysler Fifth
11:26
Avenue that was basically the varar that
11:29
we just looked at these are all on the
11:31
same more upscale body they made the
11:34
Plymouth Grand Fury just for the police
11:37
they made the Dodge Diplomat but pretty
11:39
much only police bought it and they made
11:41
the chryler Fifth Avenue people bought
11:44
those things and droves they sold really
11:46
well to civilian buyers I I think I've
11:49
known one I've met one person in my life
11:51
who bought one of those things in Dodge
11:53
or Plymouth form but I've met a bunch of
11:55
people at the chrys course and if you
11:57
look at the sales figures the chry were
11:59
way out sold to Dodge in the Plymouth
12:01
it's weird to me because the difference
12:04
in those three cars was really minor so
12:07
it worked the crazy thing is the
12:10
strategy worked you put a little extra
12:11
Chrome on you make it look a little
12:13
nicer you put in a little more trim few
12:15
more options and people bought them in
12:18
large numbers so basically Plymouth was
12:20
being starved a bit and it was
12:22
restricted to the low end leoka came in
12:25
and he said well we need some sort of
12:26
brand discipline because this is silly
12:28
to have three versions of every car and
12:31
the main difference is styling with
12:33
different sound insulation and we play
12:35
with the standard features so he said
12:38
okay we're going to shove Plymouth down
12:39
to the bottom and Plymouth won't get for
12:42
the most part cars with the turbo 2.2
12:44
engine because it's a premium engine and
12:46
Plymouth is a value line car that Dodge
12:49
is going to be our sporty car before
12:52
this in the 70s and in the 60s you know
12:54
people remembered Dodgers having sporty
12:56
cars and it sure did but who was in
12:58
NASCAR more often winning races it was
13:00
Plymouth Plymouth made most of the
13:03
really sporty cars at chryler during the
13:05
60s and 70s they made the Road Runner
13:07
they made the duster Dodge had the
13:09
charger admittedly but that was a higher
13:10
end car it sold in lower numbers when
13:13
the pleth breeze came out in the '90s it
13:15
was a year after the midsize cars came
13:18
out for Chrysler and Dodge the cus and
13:21
the stratus the breeze was not meant to
13:24
happen people started harassing them
13:25
where the hell was my Breeze chryler
13:28
dealers would call up and say look I
13:29
need something cheap to sell to people
13:31
cus comes only as a high-end car with a
13:34
V6 so the breeze get the four-cylinder
13:36
only the Dodge of course gets a
13:38
four-cylinder or a V6 your choice
13:40
because Dodge gets whatever it wants
13:42
Chrysler get some unique cars they get
13:44
the you remember the learon coupe the
13:45
learon convertible convertible beautiful
13:48
cars the Imperial and they got the
13:50
biggest o cars and eventually they got
13:52
the 300M although that was really a
13:54
rebadged evil Vision so I don't know if
13:56
it counts Dodge always had a firmer ride
13:59
chrys Le Plymouth had a softer ride
14:01
during this era of the 80s and 90s and
14:04
that continued until the 2008
14:06
minivans basically the reason why Dodge
14:09
tended to get whatever it wanted was
14:11
because there were two types of dealers
14:12
then chry and Plymouth started out with
14:15
separate dealers in 1928 Plymouth had
14:17
its own unique dealers depression hits
14:20
Chrysler dealers suddenly are having a
14:22
hard time selling cars Walter Chrysler
14:25
says well let's merge the two Chrysler
14:27
dealers can sell plymouths Plymouth
14:29
dealers can sell Chrysler so Chrysler
14:31
and Plymouth had the same dealers but
14:33
Dodge was always separate so Dodge
14:35
according to the dealers had to get one
14:36
of each so Tom Gail hooked up a plan to
14:40
save Plymouth because the writing was
14:41
definitely on the wall for Plymouth and
14:43
the Gail plan was based on the Plymouth
14:46
Prowler was the test car for it and then
14:49
the second the first real Plymouth was
14:51
to be this beautiful neon based car the
14:54
Plymouth truck or PT Cruiser as they
14:58
called it and after that he had a
15:00
Plymouth Voyager designed which would
15:02
adopt that same basic styling and then
15:04
he was going to do a version of the
15:06
midsize G the stratus and he was going
15:09
to make Plymouth basically all
15:11
crossovers all 30s styling all the time
15:15
and the idea was Plymouth will be unique
15:17
it will have its own visual identity it
15:19
will have its own interior identity it
15:22
will have its own feel and it will be
15:24
all this one unique body style that
15:27
right now you know the Dan are still
15:29
what you buy right it's still what 2001
15:33
sedans are still king or pickup trucks
15:36
it was a very clever plan and he
15:37
probably it probably would have been a
15:39
resounding success partly because the PT
15:42
was at first and partly because
15:45
crossovers were the future not many
15:47
people saw that but that's a crossover
15:49
design so 2000 the decision to kill
15:53
Plymouth is made at the top and they
15:55
tell Tom Gail and he quits 2001
15:59
uh the last Plymouth is made it's an
16:01
neon and the chryler dealers start
16:03
threatening to sue because they don't
16:05
have the cheap cars to sell anymore
16:07
without Plymouth God forbid they should
16:10
only sell Chryslers so they assign all
16:13
the plymouths to Chrysler including
16:16
Heaven Help Us the Plymouth Voyager the
16:18
base model minivan goes as the Chrysler
16:20
Voyager for a couple years and then
16:22
becomes a Town and Country Touring
16:23
Christ Lord is a full lineup for the
16:25
first time since 1928 Harrah and we
16:28
quickly realize why they didn't have why
16:31
they only had a full lineup in 26 and 27
16:34
and stopped doing it in 28 because it's
16:35
a bad idea for a car maker that's making
16:39
its premiums off of charging like 20%
16:42
extra for a car over an economy car
16:46
having this massive premium that people
16:47
are happy to Fork over well they're not
16:50
so happy to Fork it over when you're
16:52
selling economy cars too and that's why
16:55
Walter Chrysler really created Plymouth
16:57
is because it was not SU able to have
16:59
Maxwells and Chryslers with the same
17:01
badge on them it was it was hurting
17:04
Chrysler so sales Fall it looks like
17:07
sales aren't falling as badly because
17:08
the PT Cruiser comes in and it's selling
17:10
in six figures and it's a big success
17:13
but sales are falling and most Plymouth
17:15
dealers according to the research just
17:16
left the company entirely didn't buy a
17:18
Dodge didn't buy a price or they just
17:20
left so here's an example of how bad
17:23
this policy was because I've been
17:24
talking in generalities and anybody can
17:26
say stuff so here's some numbers Cruiser
17:29
in 2001 they started at
17:38
$118,400 adjusted for inflation I ran it
17:41
through the CPC price calculator which
17:44
is more than a Jeep Compass 2007
17:47
admittedly this is after diimler had
17:49
come through about eight times and
17:51
cheapened it and taken stuff out and
17:53
made it look worse
17:56
$116,000 it went down in b base price
17:59
over time $24,000 today now that's the
18:03
same price as a Toyota Corolla a base
18:04
model Toyota Corolla so we're talking
18:07
about something that started out roughly
18:09
the price of say starting Jeep Cherokee
18:11
or Dodge Charger ending up selling at
18:13
about the price of a base Corola you
18:16
look at the minivans the Plymouth ran
18:18
from 19,000 to 25 the chry were from 28
18:21
to 37 in 2000 before Plymouth was killed
18:24
off 2007 the Chrysler starts at 22 and
18:27
ends at 36 if you adjust for inflation
18:30
I'm pretty sure it didn't change at all
18:31
in price I will be honest with you and I
18:34
think chryler does a lot of weird stuff
18:36
yes I'm not entirely sure it's what we
18:39
would have called a data driven
18:40
organization when I was a real
18:42
consultant wrapping it up Chrysler was
18:45
always matched by high-end Dodge uh Tom
18:48
Gail did make Plymouth unique Dodge
18:50
would be the mass Market Plymouth would
18:52
be retromodern crossovers chry be luxury
18:54
it was a very clever plan I think it
18:56
would work better than today's plan of
18:58
chryler minivans Dodge sells muscle cars
19:01
to an Ever declining audience my theory
19:04
is that without Plymouth Chrysler can't
19:05
sell at a premium you can't have a
19:07
premium brand that sells Heap entry
19:09
level cars America the the perception
19:13
that people have will not work that way
19:16
say where we are today so there's no
19:18
Plymouth obviously there's no
19:19
replacement for Plymouth part of me
19:22
thinks that they could put Jeep into
19:23
that place jeep was a premium brand for
19:26
years and years and years despite
19:27
anything that jeep actually did they got
19:30
that aura but today I think that aura is
19:32
mostly gone so in theory because people
19:35
really only buy Crossovers and Pickups
19:37
anyway these days Jeep could probably
19:40
slot in below Chrysler but they still
19:42
keep thinking that jeep should be above
19:43
Chrysler at totis so that's probably not
19:46
going to happen at Chrysler itself they
19:48
make three different models according to
19:50
Chrysler Pacifica Pacifica hybrid and
19:53
Voyager so they make one vehicle it's a
19:55
minivan publicly stated product plan is
19:58
to have two large cars or crossovers in
20:03
2026 because they switched to an
20:05
interesting engineering plan which
20:06
involves having International Teams
20:09
point fingers at each other and say it's
20:12
their fault all of their plans are now
20:14
behind schedule so do I have any
20:16
questions why did it take so long for
20:18
oppent to get the Hem when they were
20:20
wining on the track and the street Hemi
20:23
was not developed until after NASCAR
20:25
said you can't race an engine that you
20:28
don't actually sell to real people which
20:31
was a sensible NASCAR decision that I
20:33
really can't argue with and it took
20:35
about a year to develop and start
20:37
producing the rayem so it was that
20:39
decision plus about a year Dodge I think
20:42
got it at the same time as Plymouth I
20:44
don't think that the 426 Hemi was
20:46
restricted in any way Plymouth had all
20:49
the all the divisions had the same
20:50
engines Chrysler of course would only
20:53
take the big engines the 440 and the 426
20:56
at that point or the 413 JN and Plymouth
20:59
could have any engine they wanted all
21:01
right thank you sir thank you nice job
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